Hear Me Out: Clarissa and Sally Were the Dumbledore and Grindelwald of Bourton
Yesterday during our discussion, Elisha mentioned to me in an aside that Clarissa and Sally were like Dumbledore and Grindelwald from Harry Potter. I've been thinking about it ever since, and while there's some major differences, the surface description for each couple is surprisingly similar.
Dumbledore and Grindelwald were two young men living in Godric's Hollow in the 1890s. Having lost his mother and father, Dumbledore did not want to lead his family, but felt a need to do so anyway. In Godric's Hollow, he met Gellert Grindelwald, a wizard who was kicked out of Durmstrang for Dark magic. Grindelwald introduced Dumbledore to new ideas, mainly the concept of a world where wizards rule over Muggles. This idea appealed to Dumbledore because his life was all but ruined due to some Muggle boys attacking his sister and causing her to lose control over her magic. However, Dumbledore eventually disagreed with Grindelwald and the two had a falling out that culminated in Grindelwald's defeat.
Clarissa and Sally don't entirely follow the path of Dumbledore and Grindelwald, but they appear startlingly similar. Both Clarissa and Dumbledore meet someone who's different from everything they've known. This person teaches them new ideas that will change the world, and they make plans together to implement them for the betterment of society. While these plans are quite different (Clarissa and Sally's are much more "tame" than Dumbledore and Grindelwald's), they are still similar enough on the surface to draw an agreement between the two couples.
However, there's plenty of differences between Dumbledore and Grindelwald and Clarissa and Sally. For one, Clarissa doesn't feel trapped. Dumbledore was searching for an escape, and when the opportunity arose for him to leave, even if not permanently, he took it. Clarissa is simply living a mundane life. She doesn't wish to escape it, but when she meets Sally and realizes that her whole life has been sheltered, she is immediately stimulated. Drawn out of her upper class life, the new and unfamiliar interested her, and she fell into the relationship that Dumbledore and Grindelwald had -- near obsession. Clarissa and Sally spent "hour after hour... talking about...how they were to reform the world" (p. 33). While their grand plan was not intended to be implemented like Dumbledore and Grindelwald's was, they still had a scheme that would have turned society upside down. Or at least, their view of society.
Dumbledore and Grindelwald looked into the superiority of wizards, a concept that went completely against everything Dumbledore had learned. Clarissa and Sally studied socialist texts. They planned to dispose of private property and reform the world, which went against Clarissa's aristocratic British upbringing. At the time, lively discussions of these topics were the highlight of both Clarissa and Dumbledore's lives.
But all good things come to an end, and both Dumbledore and Grindelwald and Clarissa and Sally's relationships ended. In Dumbledore's case, he and Grindelwald had a rather dramatic falling out after a fight led to a duel resulting in the death of Dumbledore's younger sister. Clarissa and Sally had a much more upper-class, civil parting: they simply moved on with their lives.
Clarissa idealizes her past with Sally. This has been mentioned a few times in class, but I think it's especially true here. Dumbledore doesn't think about his relationship with Grindelwald positively due to the fact that it was all about Dark magic. But Clarissa, who studied philosophers and socialism, has no qualms about enjoying her memories with Sally. Sally was an adventure in her life -- Sally introduced her to new things, to the concept of doing something she had done the same way her whole life differently.
I think part of this idealization is due to the class differences between Clarissa and Sally and Dumbledore and Grindelwald. Dumbledore and Grindelwald are of average wealth, if not poor. While their plan is arguably as feasible as Clarissa and Sally's plan, Dumbledore and Grindelwald have the freedom to attempt to enact their plan. Clarissa and Sally are upper class women whose future is already predetermined. Planning out their imaginary world is just a fun game. They both know that it's not possible because their lives as upper class women determine something else for their futures. It's easy for Clarissa to look back at her life then as girlhood fun because that's all it was. It would never have amounted to anything, and it's almost as if she's looking back on a game she used to play as an eight-year-old child instead of intellectual studies she did as an eighteen-year-old.
Compared to Dumbledore and Grindelwald, Clarissa and Sally were just having fun. They didn't want power, they didn't want revenge. They were exploring new ideas, they were learning. They were trapped within the confines of being upper class women. But it makes me wonder -- are they disappointed that they never really did anything? Certainly they didn't actually believe they'd implement their plan. But is there a sense of regret in Clarissa? She went from reading enticing works and planning impressive things to reading about what other people did.
I think Dumbledore also experiences a sense of regret. It's different (he regrets actually forming a connection with Grindelwald) but it's there. Dumbledore regrets many things from that point in his life, which makes me think Clarissa may also regret some things at that point in her life. She and Dumbledore both explored radical ideas and moved on from them to the more stable, classic ideas and things in life. I think Clarissa regrets not continuing with these ideas, while Dumbledore regrets ever starting them.
These differing feelings of guilt cause different reactions. Dumbledore appears happy, but is deeply emotionally disturbed by his past. Clarissa is fairly settled in her life. She also appears happy, but she reflects often on her past and the people in it. There is a sense that she's still somewhat living in the past, and perhaps regrets some parts of it. She's still attached to these ideas from a joyful time in her life. She's happy now, but she subconsciously knows she could have been happier if she proceeded to follow the ideas.
But at the same time, would she have been happier having not met Sally and not widening her worldview? Certainly Dumbledore would have been, but he also wouldn't have been as knowledgeable about Dark magic and would not have become the hero he did. Clarissa, on the other hand, may have been happier. She wouldn't have had nearly as much knowledge of how the world really works, allowing her to accept her limited role as the life of a member of parliament. She may not want to be like Lady Bexborough (who represents a sense of worldliness to her, especially with her involvement in politics). Ignorance truly would be bliss for Clarissa.
But in either case, I don't think either Dumbledore or Clarissa would choose not to experience that part of their lives. It's a mix of feelings for both -- distress, joy, confliction. And while that can be hard to deal with, I think Clarissa's happiness and Dumbledore's knowledge outweigh any emotional distress caused by Sally and Grindelwald.
Dumbledore and Grindelwald were two young men living in Godric's Hollow in the 1890s. Having lost his mother and father, Dumbledore did not want to lead his family, but felt a need to do so anyway. In Godric's Hollow, he met Gellert Grindelwald, a wizard who was kicked out of Durmstrang for Dark magic. Grindelwald introduced Dumbledore to new ideas, mainly the concept of a world where wizards rule over Muggles. This idea appealed to Dumbledore because his life was all but ruined due to some Muggle boys attacking his sister and causing her to lose control over her magic. However, Dumbledore eventually disagreed with Grindelwald and the two had a falling out that culminated in Grindelwald's defeat.
Clarissa and Sally don't entirely follow the path of Dumbledore and Grindelwald, but they appear startlingly similar. Both Clarissa and Dumbledore meet someone who's different from everything they've known. This person teaches them new ideas that will change the world, and they make plans together to implement them for the betterment of society. While these plans are quite different (Clarissa and Sally's are much more "tame" than Dumbledore and Grindelwald's), they are still similar enough on the surface to draw an agreement between the two couples.
However, there's plenty of differences between Dumbledore and Grindelwald and Clarissa and Sally. For one, Clarissa doesn't feel trapped. Dumbledore was searching for an escape, and when the opportunity arose for him to leave, even if not permanently, he took it. Clarissa is simply living a mundane life. She doesn't wish to escape it, but when she meets Sally and realizes that her whole life has been sheltered, she is immediately stimulated. Drawn out of her upper class life, the new and unfamiliar interested her, and she fell into the relationship that Dumbledore and Grindelwald had -- near obsession. Clarissa and Sally spent "hour after hour... talking about...how they were to reform the world" (p. 33). While their grand plan was not intended to be implemented like Dumbledore and Grindelwald's was, they still had a scheme that would have turned society upside down. Or at least, their view of society.
Dumbledore and Grindelwald looked into the superiority of wizards, a concept that went completely against everything Dumbledore had learned. Clarissa and Sally studied socialist texts. They planned to dispose of private property and reform the world, which went against Clarissa's aristocratic British upbringing. At the time, lively discussions of these topics were the highlight of both Clarissa and Dumbledore's lives.
But all good things come to an end, and both Dumbledore and Grindelwald and Clarissa and Sally's relationships ended. In Dumbledore's case, he and Grindelwald had a rather dramatic falling out after a fight led to a duel resulting in the death of Dumbledore's younger sister. Clarissa and Sally had a much more upper-class, civil parting: they simply moved on with their lives.
Clarissa idealizes her past with Sally. This has been mentioned a few times in class, but I think it's especially true here. Dumbledore doesn't think about his relationship with Grindelwald positively due to the fact that it was all about Dark magic. But Clarissa, who studied philosophers and socialism, has no qualms about enjoying her memories with Sally. Sally was an adventure in her life -- Sally introduced her to new things, to the concept of doing something she had done the same way her whole life differently.
I think part of this idealization is due to the class differences between Clarissa and Sally and Dumbledore and Grindelwald. Dumbledore and Grindelwald are of average wealth, if not poor. While their plan is arguably as feasible as Clarissa and Sally's plan, Dumbledore and Grindelwald have the freedom to attempt to enact their plan. Clarissa and Sally are upper class women whose future is already predetermined. Planning out their imaginary world is just a fun game. They both know that it's not possible because their lives as upper class women determine something else for their futures. It's easy for Clarissa to look back at her life then as girlhood fun because that's all it was. It would never have amounted to anything, and it's almost as if she's looking back on a game she used to play as an eight-year-old child instead of intellectual studies she did as an eighteen-year-old.
Compared to Dumbledore and Grindelwald, Clarissa and Sally were just having fun. They didn't want power, they didn't want revenge. They were exploring new ideas, they were learning. They were trapped within the confines of being upper class women. But it makes me wonder -- are they disappointed that they never really did anything? Certainly they didn't actually believe they'd implement their plan. But is there a sense of regret in Clarissa? She went from reading enticing works and planning impressive things to reading about what other people did.
I think Dumbledore also experiences a sense of regret. It's different (he regrets actually forming a connection with Grindelwald) but it's there. Dumbledore regrets many things from that point in his life, which makes me think Clarissa may also regret some things at that point in her life. She and Dumbledore both explored radical ideas and moved on from them to the more stable, classic ideas and things in life. I think Clarissa regrets not continuing with these ideas, while Dumbledore regrets ever starting them.
These differing feelings of guilt cause different reactions. Dumbledore appears happy, but is deeply emotionally disturbed by his past. Clarissa is fairly settled in her life. She also appears happy, but she reflects often on her past and the people in it. There is a sense that she's still somewhat living in the past, and perhaps regrets some parts of it. She's still attached to these ideas from a joyful time in her life. She's happy now, but she subconsciously knows she could have been happier if she proceeded to follow the ideas.
But at the same time, would she have been happier having not met Sally and not widening her worldview? Certainly Dumbledore would have been, but he also wouldn't have been as knowledgeable about Dark magic and would not have become the hero he did. Clarissa, on the other hand, may have been happier. She wouldn't have had nearly as much knowledge of how the world really works, allowing her to accept her limited role as the life of a member of parliament. She may not want to be like Lady Bexborough (who represents a sense of worldliness to her, especially with her involvement in politics). Ignorance truly would be bliss for Clarissa.
But in either case, I don't think either Dumbledore or Clarissa would choose not to experience that part of their lives. It's a mix of feelings for both -- distress, joy, confliction. And while that can be hard to deal with, I think Clarissa's happiness and Dumbledore's knowledge outweigh any emotional distress caused by Sally and Grindelwald.
As a Harry Potter fan, this blog post greatly interests me. Another point of similarity between Grindelwald and Dumbledore and Clarissa would be they both kept their respective relationships a secret. Clarissa couldn't tell anyone she kissed Sally because homosexuality wasn't even seen as an option back in this time period. Dumbledore didn't openly reveal his relationship to many people since being in a relationship with Grindelwald wouldn't exactly be helpful to his reputation. Also, I found your point regarding how Dumbledore and Grindelwald had plans they planned to enact whereas Clarissa and Sally were just having fun interesting. I wonder how this affected their relationship.
ReplyDeleteIs this relationship in Harry Potter simpcifically seen in the books? Or is this from the movies? The similarity between these two characters and Sally and Clarissa seems to be that they improve each other's worldview. I wouldn't say that is something that specifically seen in only Harry Potter or only Mrs. Dalloway. I think in various book you can find the naive protagonist who through an older influence starts thinking of the world differently. Also this is a way closer reading of Harry Potter than I did as a middle schooler. Did they only imply Grindelwalde and Dumbledore's relations?
ReplyDeleteThis is from the books. Their relationship is barely touched on in the movies. And I'm not entirely sure how much it's talked about in the books either, honestly. I just know I learned everything in this blog post at some point. A lot of Harry Potter knowledge resides in my head and I'm not sure where a lot of it came from. I think some of the information about Grindelwald and Dumbledore came from JK Rowling's extra information she occasionally gives out in interviews and whatnot, though.
DeleteYes - Dumbledore is confirmed as gay, so there's been a lot of speculation that he and Grindelwald were in a (somewhat romantic? mostly intellectual?) relationship. I don't know if JK Rowling actually confirmed it, but even if she hasn't it's nearly canon. :) Hope this helps.
DeleteWoah... wonderful idea! Though I wonder if Clarissa and Sally's relationship turned out on the same sour note as Dumbledore and Grindelwald. Considering that Peter still contacts Sally, I wonder if Clarissa writes to Sally at all, and if their relationship was truly ended.
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ReplyDeleteI'm so glad someone else thought this too! The Dumbledore/Grindelwald relationship was the first thing I thought of when Clarissa was describing Sally and her plans to "reform the world".
I agree with all the similarities you pointed out, and I think Clarissa and Dumbledore are also similar in their loneliness. Dumbledore led a solitary, detached life after Grindelwald without any romantic relationships. Clarissa doesn't feel the same closeness to Richard (or any man) as she did with Sally, she sleeps alone, and she often describes herself as a nun.
This isn't the only part of Mrs. Dalloway that reminded me of Harry Potter. I think there are similarities in they way Rowling and Woolf write/develop characters. JK Rowling has admitted that several of her characters, (Snape, Umbridge), were partially based on people she knew.
In "Mr. Bennet and Mrs. Brown" Woolf wrote about taking two random people she saw in public and turning them into characters. I don't know whether Woolf actually bases her novel characters on people she knows/has seen in real life, but it wouldn't surprise me. Either way, Mrs. Dalloway is entirely character driven, and, although HP isn't quite the same, I think most of its lasting popularity has come from how real its characters seem.